To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. Instead we have to accept that we don't understand their paradigm and choose to believe that they love God and believe that they are faithfully serving Him. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. @ Arce: Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. The WCF clearly states that God is not the author of sin. Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. But to have to constantly think, Must remember its for Gods glory is sheer legalism and bondage. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? My bet would be that some (many?) Or if they reject it because they think it teaches that God loves to abuse his children. @ JeffB: Roger Olson 23. Indeed. This is simply human and not related to social faux pas. 8. I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. I am not familiar with the guy in the video or the people behind that You Tube channel, nor have I investigated who they are and what they believe, so I may not be in agreement with all their views. Dee, your post brought back child hood memories of Boston. Entropy setting in over time? If Calvin hadnt written up on it, someone else may well have done subsequently. As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child., I think Jesus meant childlike, not childish. Childlike faith and trust are good, but faith has content, and, as it says in Hebrews, we should not be satisfied all our lives with the milk of the word, but should graduate to solid food.. I often wonder how Sproul Sr. feels about the fact that his son has gone soooooo far off the theological rails. In fact, I doubt any of the Cavlinistas would even agree with that thought process. Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. @ JeffB: I appreciate the dialog. Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. Where we end, he begins. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. God, help us to love. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say. Can God repair things? You can only use Bible verses." There are Cals who admonish other Cals to stop behaving this way, sometimes in their in-house squabbles such as, I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others. Many problems in churches and society should transcend doctrinal biases. Im not saying that her description is completely off, but its far from the God of Scripture. Is proud of you. Jeff S wrote: And of course, that is just RC Sproul, though I do know this idea of primary and secondary causes has been around for a while and is not primarily a Calvinist idea. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. Ex-Calvinist Daniel Gracely in his book Calvinism a closer look writes: "Calvinist and Non-Calvinist do not share the same meaning of words.. This is as it should be, imo. Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. And if the term is ambiguous, then I its wise to be careful and specific in criticism. The last point of Calvinism we'll be dealing with is the perseverance of the saints. This soteriological view is named after him because he is best remembered for his plethora of writings on this theological subject. Jeff, whether it was my misperceptions or real perceptions of the doctrine that you hold dear to your heart, someone trying to correct my faulty ideas of Calvinism isnt going to benefit me whatsoever if I am at the emotional/spiritual end of my rope. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. Anyway, just a plug for the traditional anabaptists if someone is looking for an evangelical experience that is not Calvinist or pastor-ruled (you have to check each Mennonite church out, some can be very old-school with head coverings, but the modern ones arent at all). Im not saying that they are incapable of making the mistake, but, since you say that this is what many people come away with, it could be that they communicated it poorly. http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others. I am sure that I didn't pray correctly. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. I think Heb. I think it is sad that the PC(USA) rejected the song because of a line that is part of their doctrinal heritage. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? They should not get to define theology that has been around much longer than them. It is an incontrovertible fact that some parts of Calvinism have been used to hurt people. Do not expect to win the argument, no matter how logical and "winsome" you are. Other authors, some who have made extensive contributions in the fields of biblical and theological studies, include Kenneth Mathews, Tremper Longman III, Walt Kaiser, Chuck Quarles, Stan Porter, Malcolm Yarnell III, and David Dockery. I check out on their sub and they lile John Calvin and said that his theologybwas a major necessity to make their 33(?) (Keep in mind Sproul Jr.s insistence that God always acts according to his strongest desire.). Excellent work! He exercises his power and sovereignty over all created things. That if we are only a little totally depraved we might only get a little condemned by God, and not die? My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Everything. I want you to try to make the distinction between disagreeing strongly with what you say and believe, and disagreeing strongly with YOU. I am going to quote liberally from Sprouls book Truths We Confess, Vol 1 about this section of WCF. Founders made the list, as did John Piper, Jonathan Edwards, RC Sproul, James White and the first Southern Baptist confession of faith (which is still used at Southern and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminaries, and which even the famous non-Calvinist Paige Patterson has signed), the Abstract of Principles. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html. At any rate, the point is that I agree with you (even though I disagree that TULIP is slanderous) that when we start elevating these doctrines to first tier issues, we are causing division within the body. If you mean that those that God does not elect to save will definitely be condemned yes, since there is no other way they can be saved, they, in a sense, are elected to be condemned for their sins. Each Christmas, I am thankful that God works in mysterious ways. So, in that manner, I have some suggestion on how to view Calvinists as a non-Calvinist. In spite of the current emphasis on Neo-Calvinism, it is still a minority position. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian.. And many if not most Protestant mainline denominations accept the idea of penal substitionary atonement, though I am aware not everyone accepts this belief. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? I worked in a womens shelter and was surprised at the number of pastors wives (well-known ones, too) who were regulars in the shelter. I accept with humility that there are things that I cannot understand. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. I get what youre saying. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. I inferred, from the context in which you placed it, that by child you meant someone innocent of knowledge, using the examples you gave as metaphors, since, of course, Jesus didnt tell us to believe in those things. Ive never spent much time self-identifying as a Calvinist. . CALVIN! He "knew" that only the infants of covenantal believers go to heaven. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. There are some big ones where I do not agree (for example, he is quite patriarchal, even though he doesnt make as big a deal about it as some of the more outspoken complementarians). Im not saying you or TWW do that, but I have felt in the past that I was really not allowed to be a Calvinist in some commenters minds. Whatever part of the stream a Calvinist has adopted (and there are several streams), calling ones self a Calvinist means taking responsibility for the parts of the broader construct that are damaging. NEVER allow them an unchallenged presumption. Reformed theology teaches that God in His grace and mercy has chosen to redeem a people to Himself, delivering them from sin and death. Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. It caused her great pain to contemplate the Calvinist belief that God had ordained for her to be abused in such a manner. They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. We will briefly survey these five points of disagreement and . If you define Calvinism that way, then I am certainly not a Calvinist, but neither is my church, the PCA, nor even was Calvin himself. I think many. 1 Systematic Theology Berkhof, Louis (Author) English (Publication Language) After all, there are reasons lots of men and women have bought into it over the last few hundred years. And if you reject the doctrine as it has been historically understood (like the guy at my church), then at least you are wrestling with a time tested theology, not a new fad, and wrestling with time tested theology can only help you grow as a Christian. I am not promoting Lutheranism as the only place to go. I had Wade Burelson come to my little rinky-dink blog and debate me on my turf. CALVIN! One of the problems in these conversatiosn is that some Calvinists will say, Cal does not teach X!, and maybe it does not(? Calvinism did not start with John Calvin. Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. In between cleaning out my car and doing other various jobs around the house, it came to me. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? I notedthat this man often appeared angry to me and blew him off, deciding he was dealing with something in his life. It sounds like you are making a systematic presentation of theology the gospel. They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. Yet, no matter how hard I tried to understand, I just couldn't get there. They think they are helping and by knowing what they believe about Calvinism, it will be of comfort to them. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. Yet, their theology is reformed. I know the WCF does not say it. Thats what I think the intention of this blog post was. There wasnt so much in your face going on. I told her that I disagree with John Piper's take on this situation. Ah, I didnt catch that. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. First list Randy Alcorn Thabiti Anyabwile Tom Ascol Voddie Baucham Joel Beeke Alistair Begg Jon Bloom Loraine Boettner James Pettigru Boyse John Calvin (of course) D.A. If the Bible is Gods Word, and we are capable of understanding it, where else can we go to answer the deeper questions except to ourselves? If this is so, its really astounding. J. Vernon McGee 19. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell??). For example, we should never, ever turn our backs on child sex abuse because the pastor in the church where it happened is one of our good buddies. CALVIN! I find it troubling too. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. I hope that alone will entice some to read it. I think that this is the reason why, in some cases (not including anyone in the present discussion), that a robust discussion is not possible. These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. If you think I should be sensitive and hold my tongue at times, then I agree. Thanks for posting it. She called me and we had a good talk. By which they really mean: God hasnt given you the grace to perceive; or, as my mother in law likes to say to end all discussion I just know that I know that I know. Agree. Besides, you have a long way to go to be considered mean. I dont know how else God can allow his creation to be truly free, if he steps in each and every time somebody decides to hurt somebody else, or if He removes all evil from society all the time. Deb and are are well aware of the criticism we are receiving from some non-Calvinists because we feature sermons by Wade Burleson. I do hope when I sad that comment, I said illogical TO ME, as in general I hesitate to call other people views illogical. Does it help that the Institutes that we have today began with a normal-sized book that Calvin added to over about a 24-year period, and was not the case of a mad obsessive locking himself in a room for a year or two? Cheers you on. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. And our needs are met by taking ground and accomplishing; because we were robbed of our inheritance and starved of purpose and significance. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. Because truth that doesnt work in the grey isnt really truth. System- & neat-little-box-free. As a moderator at my blog, yes, Id shut it down and recommend that they take it to the Calvinism debate thread if they want to discuss it further. These would include pedophilia, domestic violence, poverty, natural disasters, racial strife, etc. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. If Calvinism sounds so much like Arminianism, why is there such a problem? Calvinism Jesse Morrell. The guy in the video I linked to above (or the host of the channel, I forget which after I watched the first video, I watched about five more by the bearded guy who owns the channel) mentioned WCF, too, and pointed out what he considered to be flaws with WCFs statements, which he seemed to think are in agreement with some Calvinistic views about God decreeing stuff/ predestination. (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). They always enter the discussion with the premises well defined; and the cornerstone premise is that you are wrong and they are right. God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. I was the outside force that acted on the chalk by throwing it at you. Unfortunately, to some, that means I may not even be a Christian. I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. Here's the list, and I start with the first prez of the CR, Adrian Rogers: Adrian Rogers. As Ive said, Id prefer not to discuss Calvinism at all. I had planned to say the same thing to him. We are not monolithic. Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. As for my content, I think the Nicene Creed covers a lot of it. Someone should alert Crossway immediately. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! Remember, Calvinism is merely the invoking of associative meaning, not real meaning. Maybe Im wrong on that. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. God in nature, God in history, God in grace. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. +++++++++++++++++. But, nothey will say, you dont have to agree with me! Wife (whose abusive first husband was one of the biggest drug dealers in the Midwest before she divorced him) was my Lamaze coach. @ Jeff S: So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. Just an observation. We are. To claim Were doing well so we must be righteous is banal theological incompetence. Apparently Imade some remark that all infants who die go to heaven. Prayer Requests Or maybe a better example would be if someone said The practice of withholding baptism from infants is evil, Im sure people would rush to defend their position. Sproul Steve Lawson Voddie Bachham Wayne Grudem People Guilty Of Greatly Spreading The False "Free Will" Gospel: Bill Bright Billy Graham Charles Finney I cant explain it, but the very thought of it is a testimony to His love for us ALL. Have you forgotten his evangelism tours where there were great multitudes of rebaptisms? And I am fully expecting at least one learned, reformed MAN to give me a tongue lashing. God is NOT in control. Just want you to know that Im keeping your son-in-law in my prayers. who needs systems & neat little boxes? Those of us who were vocally opposed to the leadership during the days of the Brent Detwiler Wiki Wars were quietly asked to leave, and they held open the door for me and my family with dulcet platitudes and smiling faces. I dont even think PSA is limited to Calvinists- Lutherans believe it too, right? You might want to read The Institutes some time. He is NOT against us, but thank God, He is for us!! As well as giving off a strong aroma of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Maybe only a part of it is wrong, maybe the whole thing. This is a false dichotomy. Fine- no one is calling him out. I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. Yet not one of them will read Is God to Blame by Greg Boyd, let alone sit and discuss the verses in question (Exploring what Gods sovereignity really means, based on scripture). They MUST insist you agree with themit is implied in the very protest to my assertion: You dont understand me; you cant understand me; thus, your only response is to AGREE that you could be wrong. @ Junkster: But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. There are many bite marks on my tongue. Wade is one of the most loving pastors that we have ever had the joy to meet. They are charitable and give us the benefit of the doubt. Here is a link to a chart comparing Calvinism to Arminianism. Instead, you consider this shorthand for biblical Christianity. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. Thank you for helping me out. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. He can- but there will be scars and pain that will not go away in this life. Learn more or donate today at crossway.org/about . All are welcome to participate. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. If Im wrong, I apologize. I know. Since I have never read Instititues, I cant be more specific. I am currently reading Roger Olson's book, Against Calvinism. My young son-in-law has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. Does that make my stance clearer? I think the way to achieve this is to leave Calvin/theology out entirely and instead actively love/listen/show compassion. Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. Purity of Ideology, Dee. Most churches teach Arminian theology. Reformed theology has other tenets, which Calvin influenced, along with other theologians like Augustine (354-430) and Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531). Ive seen only the first 15 minutes so far, and what he says makes sense to me: Is God the AUTHOR OF SIN? We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. I guess God can use bad things to lead us to a true knowledge of Him. I was a Jesus Movement convert, too in 1972. Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. Especially the statements above. However, their first names do arouse my suspicions. I guess there will always be that tension there. Craig Keener 25. Many of us, view double predestination to be in great conflict with the character of God as He presents Himself in scripture. Demand they defend their ideas. I don't get him and he doesn't get me but we can still try to love and respect one another.
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